1. The bus in the center, presumably destroyed by a suicide bomber, much like yesterday’s blast which killed 8 people and injured scores more.
2. The wall itself, a 24-foot-high concrete monstrosity subject to review by an international tribunal at the Hague today to debate the “legality” of the wall, a gargantuan construction which certainly plays no part in dehumanizing Palestinians, but instead provides security for Israelis and prevents suicide bomber attacks (See answer key item #1, step, and repeat).
9 replies on “There are two things wrong with this picture”
1) Why not comment on the idiocy of executing a terrorist attack at the very moment that the Hague tribunal is listening to testimony about the wall not being necessary?
2) Israel defuses hundreds of terrorist attacks every month, either through the barrier (including Gaza) or through intelligence or military/police action. To say that one bomber getting thru out of 100 being stopped is not worth it is ridiculous. Should the US not have done anything about air safety after 9/11?
3) If I recall correctly, the suicide bombings were going on long before there was a barrier. I fail to see the cause and effect.
4) The barrier is a large concrete wall only in a few areas, primarily alongside a freeway where two small children were shot by a sniper in the back of their car on the way home from a wedding. It’s primarily a fence, just like the one between the US and Mexico and lots and lots of other places around the world.
5) Everyone would like to NOT HAVE to have a barrier! It’s extremely expensive and hard to maintain. What other course of action would you suggest?
i think yr point number one was, in fact, part of my primary point re: a mutual cycle of idiocy, whereby two idiots call each other likewise. we’re in agreement there. sunday’s shit was fucking stupid and shameful and debases the process as a whole, as usual.
also, the hague court isn’t listening to testimony regarding the ‘necessity’ of the wall, so much as the legality, i.e. its placement not on exclusively israeli land, its disruption of a liveable lifestyle for residents of the affected communities, and its manipulation of so-called borders.
re: no. 2, i didn’t really mean to assert that the wall’s existence was “not worth it” due to a fox-news-branded homicide bombing havign occurred; rather, we know from numerous published reports today that this particular bombing did in fact occur BECAUSE of the wall, as the strike’s instigators said regarding trying to get attention for the hague audience (“see? you will not be safe with the wall here”). again, it’s fucking stupid, and frustrating. also, asking “Should the US not have done anything about air safety after 9/11?” is specious, at best…having travelers remove their nail clippers and remove their shoes for five minutes is not nearly tantamount to living in the shadow of a dehumanizing monstrosity, one which cuts you from land you’ve farmed for years, which cuts off your transportation options, which adds hours upon hours of wait time for your mobility…a better analogy would have been if the US had implemented a system of not allowing Arab individuals to not fly without having to sit in a holding cell for five hours pre-flight.
re: no. 3; it’s not a “cause and effect”, per se, so much as a failure to function as a -solution-, which is how this has been billed to the israeli and international community.
re: no. 4, take a better look at the maps of the wall, both as it exists RIGHT NOW and as it stands for construction plans. as an angeleno, consider the mike davis-esque idea of what the freeways do to los angeles; think of the manner in which wealthy white mercedes drivers can skirt effortlessly above east LA and the like; think of the walls built to soundproof the freeway for nearby residents; think of the value of land near these freeways, even as far west as santa monica; think of the types of people we find living in these communities…the poor, the dispossessed, the depressed…the dehumanized. much like freeways can be said to be rivers through a city, but with poisonous riverbanks, so can we consider this “fence”. fence, wall, cage…it’s semantics, but a miserable exercise in lyricism.
consider, too, your analogy to the mexican border wall. consider the dehumanization issues regarding that selfsame border; the funds we pour into this resource, the innumerable deaths caused by its existence since the clintonian 90s…
which leads me to…
yr point 5: in an idealist fit of pique, a single-state solution, much like we may someday have with mexico and the entire north american continent…but grounded in modern reality, a two-state solution exercised by the US, forcefully if necessary…taking the force we’ve so willingly exercised against an irrelevant territory (iraq) and applying it both diplomatically to the israelis in not funding some of the more barbaric policies, and, if necessarily, militarily for groups like hamas. these are solutions americans can exercise, but it requires (forgive the regrettable word choice, but the idea still holds) paternalism towards BOTH israel and the so-called palestine, rather than the one-sided paternalism currently in practice with this moronic and selective “war on terror”.
please excuse me, now. i’m going to meet with disgraced former houston superintendent and current education secretary rod paige as we clamp down on the terrorists at the NEA.
Let me see if I get your point. Because a homicide bombing occurred despite the existence of portions of the security wall you believe the wall does not represent a valid strategy to diminish the number of successful murders; is that what your point is?
Additionally, am I to understand you believe the recent appearance of said wall to be the sole cause of marginal quality of life for affected persons? The US, EU, & UN have poured countless dollars into the coffers of the kleptomaniacs who “govern” those folks; do you think those “leaders” bear any of the blame for the circumstances of thier citizens, or is it all the fault of the wall?
The wall is a great idea– IF AND ONLY IF it were built on the green line.
But it isn’t, it’s build inside non-Israeli land, and is designed not for security but to solidify Israeli control over their settlements, and ensure that there will never be a viable Palestinian state.
Like all security apparatus it can be hacked, but debating that is not the primary issue, which is that the wall is a giant land-grab designed to enforce earlier massive land grabs. It is not built for security! That is a secondary feature. True security will only come with a fair and just settlement.
That the wall isn’t on the green line is just the latest red herring thrown out to distract from the fact that Palistinian terrorists are murdering innocent Israelis. If the Palis were interested in improving their lives they could do so with 2 or 3 or even 10 percent less land. That they refuse to take responsibility for building that better life sheds light on why they are such failures.
The notion that Israelis will have security once there is a circumstance you consider “fair” to the Palis is spectacularly naive. If you know history since 1948, you know that Israel’s neighbors would not provide Israel with security at a time when the green line was the only border, and before there was an occupation, any settlements, or a wall. The locals who need to show their capability for peaceful coexistence would be the Palis.
Your “land grab” red herring is (vis a vis the wall) equivalent to the “it’s about oil” red herring (vis a vis taking out Saddam). It allows for simple-minded sloganeering in the face of any and all facts & arguments laid out by someone with an opposing point of view. So instead of repsonding to my points, put your hands over your ears & scream “land grab! land grab! land grab!” over and over again.
hi jack, indeed, let’s discuss the Palis, as well as the policies of the Izzys…
yes, my point was largely that the wall is a futile effort that merely serves to further degrade the so-called peace process, much as suicide bombers maiming commuters does likewise.
and no, i don’t think the wall is the sole dehumanizing force…i think those of us with the ability to read historical texts recognize that acts of disrespect have been occurring for quite sometime, eh? (again, on both sides)
i think one issue here is the mere occurrence of the ICJ tribunal; like the various and sundry UN resoltuons declared against israel over recent years, it’s a good reminder that this process isn’t simply about good versus evil, and that while we certainly understand the inhumane/vile notion of people obliterating themselves alongside various workers and families, we might also glean some understanding of the vile/inhumane dehumanization accorded the “Palis”, e.g. the caterpillar-ization of homes of suspected suicide bombers, the obliteration of neighborhoods and ways of life, the curfews, the embargoes, etc….
so, this land grab aspect isn’t a mere ‘red herring’; rather, it’s been the primary issue throughout the past few decades, and certainly throughout the 1990s and beyond. the construction and funding of this giant wall is just the cold hard manifestation of this destructive process that somehow, seeing settlers moving onto Pali land couldn’t quite illustrate to the world press.
re: history since 1948, let’s be judicious and ask that israel take the upper hand here…let’s act in good faith, as americans funding this iteration of apartheid, and request that the 67 borders be realized. it’s a new era, right? i suspect, and hope, that with the US support so clearly behind the Izzy cause, people would certainly ‘respect’ these 67 borders.
But what do i know…i’m merely holding out for the tv reunion, “Izzy Loves Pali”…
Jack, your “Israeli domestic security” red herring vis a vis the wall allows for simple-minded sloganeering in the face of any and all facts & arguments laid out by someone with an opposing point of view.
So instead of repsonding to Ted’s points, you put your hands over your ears & scream “suicide bombers! suicide bombers! suicide bombers!” over and over again.
Sounds ridiculous when it comes from the other side, right?
This back and foreth is completely unhelpful in terms of bringing about peace. You say violence must end before we can discuss the occupation. Ted says, I assume, there can be no talk of an end to violence until the (inherrently violent) occupation ends. How many people are going to die while hard-liners toss this one back and foreth?
Work for peace through compromise – support the Geneva Accord.
Sorry Jack, it’s you who want to put your hands over your ears and shriek Terror! Murder! Bombings! Pizza Parlors!
Where to begin? Well first of all let’s not confuse facts with fantasy– the wall is a land grab from any perspective. Take a look at a map and realize that the land being taken is often farmland, which equals money, which equals prosperity, which equals any chance at a normal life in a normal country. Economics is the driving force of any conflict, and any Palestinian state that is bisected by Jewish-only roads, massive walls, and has a foreign army in control of entry and exit within ‘sovreign’ territory’ is not economically viable. While as I explained above, 2,3, or 10% of land CAN make a difference, if it were only about contiguous parcels of land, you’re right, the Palestinians could build a functioning state on that land.
However, it’s not about percentages, it’s about control. Prisoners control 95% of the land of a prison. But are they free? Could you build propserity from a prison? Well a few corrupt people who work with the guards can. In this case the prison gang leader is Arafat. The point is that you can try to pretend all you want that only one group of people is suffering, and somehow, despite their utterly insane amount of wealth, arms, and support from the most powerful nation on earth, are, as a group “the victims”.
Unfortunately many people such as yourself are unable to take the broader view. In your world, the Palestinians are afflicted with an irrational sickness of the mind which developed in a vacuum. There is no one to take responsibility for their plight, because as the victims, the Israelis could not possible be in any way responsible for what happens under their watch. In many ways I used to be just like you, until I took a business trip to Israel. One of our suppliers’ factories was located in a settlement and what I in the West Bank completely changed my perspective. Since that point I try not to argue with people like you, but it’s difficult sometimes. What I prefer to do is tell them to take a trip to Israel, have fun in what is a beautiful country, then take a trip to the West Bank or Gaza. It will blow your mind, and there is no doubt in mine that all the ‘logic’ you thought you knew, all the arguments built up over years of chauvanism and watching the news, will evaporate as you realize the sadness of the situation and the utter evil of the leaders (on both sides) as they keep it going try to ‘win’ rather than achieve lasting peace.
I just think that israel is the sickest country in the world and i hope that our american tax dollars are redirect from isreael. the occupation must stop the palestinians should have their country back.