20 replies on “Charles Graner, You Were Just Convicted of Abusing Iraqi Prisoners in Abu Ghraib. What Are You Gonna Do Now?”
What would we do without scapegoats? Every one of the officers in his chain of command is wiping sweat of their brows and breathing a sigh of relief. They might be saying something like, “Thank god we have lower enlisted soldiers to unload our mistakes on to, that we we can proceed with our President’s unjust war unmolested.” Of course, if anyone asks, I have the deapest, most profound respect for all of my leaders.
“Where would we be without scapegoats,” NS? Let’s turn to guest blogger René Girard, who tells us:
“When scandals proliferate, human beings become so obsessed with their rivals that they lose sight of the objects for which they compete and begin to focus angrily on one another…. More and more individuals polarize against fewer and fewer enemies until, in the end, only one is left. Because everyone believes in the guilt of the last victim, they all turn against him—and since that victim is now isolated and helpless, they can do so with no danger of retaliation. As a result, no enemy remains for anybody in the community. Scandals evaporate and peace returns—for a while.”
The scary part of that paragraph? “For a while.”
i think he’s gonna stock up on the K-Y jelly . . .
have fun breaking rocks asswipe
I like you point matt, how long until there is another abuse scandal? Doesn’t the abuse in Guantomo and Afghanistan documented by the red cross show a patern? When will the leadership be accountable? Graner deserves to go to jail, but nearly as much as the leadership that let it happen. Even if, as unlikely as I think it is, no one told him to do these things, they had to of known what was going on under their watch, and if they didn’t, they should be punished for that.
what pattern?
every picture from Abu Ghraib was taken on ONE NIGHT.
there were boasts that there are hundreds more pictures and evidence, but none has shown up to this day.
Kind of like those WMDs? But that aside, I was referring to torture out side of Iraq, for instance, in Gitmo like here: http://www.healthtalk.ca/red_cross_12012004_9080.php
My point is that the night of those pictures is the result of a broader culture throughout the armed forces that these men don’t deserve the same treatment we do, a culture that I as a soldier who hasn’t even gone to Iraq yet can feel. Abu Ghraib is not the only place that these things have taken place, and that is something that the DOD needs to examine in more detail if they don’t want it to happen again.
Also related, Alberto “The Geneva Conventions are Quant” Gonzales.
i agree with Alan Dershowitz:
“THE GENEVA Conventions are so outdated and are written so broadly that they have become a sword used by terrorists to kill civilians, rather than a shield to protect civilians from terrorists. These international laws have become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
Following World War II, in which millions of civilians were killed by armed forces, the international community strengthened the laws designed to distinguish between legitimate military targets and off-limit noncombatants. The line in those days was clear: The military wore uniforms, were part of a nation’s organized armed forces, and generally lived in military bases outside of population centers. Noncombatants, on the other hand, wore civilian clothing and lived mostly in areas distant from the battlefields.
The war by terrorists against democracies has changed all this.”
It is the SOS. All the enlisted personnel are taking the sword for the Commissioned Officers. I found that in my 20 years of military life that superior officers were supposed to be aware of what their subordinates were doing. It appears to me that the CIA intelligence officers and Military Officers wanted to get inforamation and approved of any formula of obtaining it but are now hiding behind their rank and civilian status and letting the enlisted personnel take all the heat. This of course is not surprising because this practice has gone on for decades. The Senator from South Carolina should honor the statment he made during the Senate hearings and see to it that all involved in the scandal are prosecuted,not just the lower ranked enlisted personnel that were just following orders.
There is so much information that America doesn’t know. I wish someone with the know how and the right connections would investigate the names of the officers involved. I think it is kind of strange that Lt. Brenson received not even a slap on the hand and he was the officer giving daily orders to these soldiers. Do you know that he does now in the civilian world? He works for a congressman in Washington DC. How convenient is that? I am proud to say that Chuckie has been a close friend of mine since 1987 when we went to the Univ. of Pitt. He is no way the monster they describe him as. Being a monster is the farthest from the truth.
Horns, you used dershowitz once before, and while i agree with him as well, the point is moot for the following 2 reasons:
1. dershowitz isn’t being nominated for attorney general. throwing his name out everytime someone quotes gonzales ignores the fact that a man who actively sought out ways to circumvent international law to justify torture will soon be the top law enforcement officer in the nation.
2. if america wants to be seen as the shining city on the hill, we need to learn to adapt as our enemies have– if the norms of the past no longer apply, then we must find new ways to lead–torturing people isn’t one of them, regardless if it all happened in one night or is a systematic pattern.
“No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.”
geneva conventions, Pt 3, Sec 1, Article 17
Sargent- “ok, we caught you beheading 5 electrical contractors, now tell us where your leader is.”
Gentle-souled muslim combatant- [silence]
Sargent- “ok. well, thanks then. Stan will take you back to your room. would you like some tea?”
What happened to the wife who posted pictures on her blog a few months ago with her navy seal husband abusing prisoners? Was that taken on the same night as Abu Grab-ass?
Bradley.
It’s you again.
who cares? i want to the video of “spanky” graner and “ass-i-licious” lynndie gettin’ hot and saucy with 10 steamy ‘detainees’ in a remote tropicalish setting. what would make the better soundtrack- def leppard’s ‘when you make love’ or love and rockets’ ‘ball of confusion’? or maybe, and this is revolutionary, no soundtrack at all! just the whines and pleads and grunts and cries to allah for swift mercy.
no, jessica, def leppard? well, ok.
This guy got what he deserved. If he was ordered to do that stuff he should have known it WAS NOT a lawful order, but it is pretty obvious from his emails to his family and friends he knew exactly what he was doing.
How do you know what he mailed his family and friends? The emails I received from Chuckie stressed his disgust for the job he was required to do. Please don’t pass judgement on someone you know nothing about.
Pardon Graner!
Now that the media has inundated the world with all the sordid images and details of the “Abu Ghraib Prison Abuse Scandal”, and now that Spc. Charles Graner has been found guilty of these so-called “abuses”, we should all feel better, right? After all, America has done all she can to prove to the Arab street just how sensitive and caring she is, right? Pardon my French, but this is a bunch of BS! I don’t know what kind of goods we’re being sold, but I ain’t buying and neither should you. War is hell and bad things happen in war. Just ask Army Spc. Matt Maupin.
Matt Maupin, of Batavia, Ohio, is still missing in Iraq. The last time this American soldier was seen he was kneeling in front of a group terrorists on the same kind of sick and sadistic videotape we’ve seen broadcast on the Arab propaganda network Al-Jazeera. In uniform, supposedly under the protection of the Geneva Convention, in the hands of the very same monsters Spc. Charles Graner and his crew at Abu Ghraib prison have been condemned for being mean and insensitive to. So where is the international outcry over the whereabouts of Spc. Matt Maupin? Where is the condemnation by the United Nations of these non-uniformed terrorists who buried Army Sgt. Elmer Krause and four civilian contractors in a shallow grave after attacking their convoy?
What this author finds so outrageous and disturbing is that so many in the world, Americans included, appear to be more concerned with the rights of non-uniformed terrorists and public relations than actually defeating this evil enemy and bringing THEM to justice. While American casualties are more in line with the War with Mexico, the very fact that we appear to be fighting a “politically correct” war grants some validity to leftist claims that Iraq is another Vietnam. The fact that Army Spc. Graner is going to jail for the mistreatment and abuse of some terrorists, including a non-uniformed Syrian who by his own admission was in Iraq to kill Americans, confirms this. Vietnam should have taught us that we cannot win a “PC” war. Stringing up a few of these guys caught in the act to the nearest light pole is what should be done.
The Geneva Convention was designed to ensure civil treatment of POWs and civilians during a time of war. In other words, while war is a very bad thing, nations do go to war for various reasons. The civilized world felt it necessary to lay out some ground rules for all to follow. However, the Geneva Convention specifically prohibits the taking of hostages and furthermore, does not apply to those that fail to “conduct their operations within the laws and customs of war”. In other words, these hostage-taking headcutters, including the non-uniformed Syrian, are not protected by the Geneva Convention. Sadly, this simple fact does not come into play as it is much more fashionable to portray the United States as the bad guy in this current conflict.
While our nation has allowed itself to be distracted by the tsunami disaster in Asia, we will be faced with a similar disaster in Iraq if we allow that country to fall into the hands of the terrorists and Saddam Hussein. Abandoning the people of Iraq, as the naive anti-American leftists here in America would have us do, would be tantamount to unleashing a tsunami on those in Iraq desirous of freedom. We cannot allow political correctness to dictate how we fight the War on Terror. We certainly didn’t when we defeated Germany and Japan in World War II. It is up to patriots across this great country to maintain a vigilant state to ensure that this mistreatment of our own soldiers does not happen again. I invite all of you to contact President Bush, your elected officials, and the Army Court of Appeals, urging them to do the right thing and pardon Spc. Charles Graner. Maybe he was a bit overzealous in his treatment of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib, but at least they still have their heads. http://www.congress.org to find your elected officials
To contact the Army Court of Appeals: [email protected]
Dear Jon:
The Red Cross found that 80% of the detainees at Abu Gharib were ordinary citizens caught up in raids by the US forces. Major General Tabuga’s report even noted that “more than sixty per cent of the civilian inmates at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released.”
This would be those going about their daily business of trying to live in the midst of war when they found themselves under group arrest because of “intelligence” given about the place they were in or about. This includes those who were taken under arrest because some Iraqis have found it is an excellent way to extol vengeance on business competitors or neighbors they feel slighted them in the past. It also includes innocent family members who were taken when the relative who was the actual target couldn’t be found and who were told they would be released when that person turned themself in.
It is extremely dangerous to cast upon a people the crimes of a separatist radical group and extract vengeance. How could the extremists in the horrid videotape be “the very same monsters” in Abu Gharib? It is only possible within the mindset of bigotry.
If you can’t see anything wrong with the dehumanizing treatment and torture of people that have been arbitrarily rounded up in a flurry of unfocused raids, nor the prejudicial, narrow-mindedness of labeling them guilty merely because they were taken to prison, without any prior questioning or screening to ascertain anything about them, and you see nothing wrong in torturing 6-8 innocent people to perhaps find 1 with information, then I must object to your stance as a “patriot”. The American Patriots who defined themselves in the writing of our Constitution did so by ensuring the inalienable rights of every person, innocent until proven guilty by due process of law, and protected from arbitrary seizure of person and property, etc.
It was these very things Matt was fighting to bring to the good people of Iraq, and I doubt he would want his name to be used to justify vile mistreatment and gross military misconduct, regardless of who sanctioned it. Rather, let us mourn him and hold him up as an honorable American soldier who held himself to the higher standards of conduct deserved of our country’s and the world’s respect.
Of what worth is still having your head, if you cannot hold it up in the company of your countrymen?
Instead of allowing yourself to be consumed with hatred and focusing only on killing and retaliating against those you judge (and misjudge) to be evil, try remembering the greater purpose is the defense and protection of the inherent goodness in humanity, which can be found in a far greater percentage of the world’s population.
Love to you,
Karla Bean
Oh- Charles Graner! How I’ld love to tie you up and kick you in the teeth reapetedly! Until the blood from your mouth fills your stomach! Then I’ld beat your bloated gut with a lead pipe until you vomitted! Thats just the first 10 minutes! I’ld like to have you over for an indefinate period of time!!! You F**cking racist coward that can only fight someone who is tied up! They shoulda thrown you to an angry Iraqi mob!!! You FAG! Your gonna love prison!!!!!!!
20 replies on “Charles Graner, You Were Just Convicted of Abusing Iraqi Prisoners in Abu Ghraib. What Are You Gonna Do Now?”
What would we do without scapegoats? Every one of the officers in his chain of command is wiping sweat of their brows and breathing a sigh of relief. They might be saying something like, “Thank god we have lower enlisted soldiers to unload our mistakes on to, that we we can proceed with our President’s unjust war unmolested.” Of course, if anyone asks, I have the deapest, most profound respect for all of my leaders.
“Where would we be without scapegoats,” NS? Let’s turn to guest blogger René Girard, who tells us:
“When scandals proliferate, human beings become so obsessed with their rivals that they lose sight of the objects for which they compete and begin to focus angrily on one another…. More and more individuals polarize against fewer and fewer enemies until, in the end, only one is left. Because everyone believes in the guilt of the last victim, they all turn against him—and since that victim is now isolated and helpless, they can do so with no danger of retaliation. As a result, no enemy remains for anybody in the community. Scandals evaporate and peace returns—for a while.”
The scary part of that paragraph? “For a while.”
i think he’s gonna stock up on the K-Y jelly . . .
have fun breaking rocks asswipe
I like you point matt, how long until there is another abuse scandal? Doesn’t the abuse in Guantomo and Afghanistan documented by the red cross show a patern? When will the leadership be accountable? Graner deserves to go to jail, but nearly as much as the leadership that let it happen. Even if, as unlikely as I think it is, no one told him to do these things, they had to of known what was going on under their watch, and if they didn’t, they should be punished for that.
what pattern?
every picture from Abu Ghraib was taken on ONE NIGHT.
there were boasts that there are hundreds more pictures and evidence, but none has shown up to this day.
Kind of like those WMDs? But that aside, I was referring to torture out side of Iraq, for instance, in Gitmo like here:
http://www.healthtalk.ca/red_cross_12012004_9080.php
My point is that the night of those pictures is the result of a broader culture throughout the armed forces that these men don’t deserve the same treatment we do, a culture that I as a soldier who hasn’t even gone to Iraq yet can feel. Abu Ghraib is not the only place that these things have taken place, and that is something that the DOD needs to examine in more detail if they don’t want it to happen again.
Also related, Alberto “The Geneva Conventions are Quant” Gonzales.
Check this out…
http://www.thejerichomovement.com/5-15-04newyorker.html
i agree with Alan Dershowitz:
“THE GENEVA Conventions are so outdated and are written so broadly that they have become a sword used by terrorists to kill civilians, rather than a shield to protect civilians from terrorists. These international laws have become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
Following World War II, in which millions of civilians were killed by armed forces, the international community strengthened the laws designed to distinguish between legitimate military targets and off-limit noncombatants. The line in those days was clear: The military wore uniforms, were part of a nation’s organized armed forces, and generally lived in military bases outside of population centers. Noncombatants, on the other hand, wore civilian clothing and lived mostly in areas distant from the battlefields.
The war by terrorists against democracies has changed all this.”
It is the SOS. All the enlisted personnel are taking the sword for the Commissioned Officers. I found that in my 20 years of military life that superior officers were supposed to be aware of what their subordinates were doing. It appears to me that the CIA intelligence officers and Military Officers wanted to get inforamation and approved of any formula of obtaining it but are now hiding behind their rank and civilian status and letting the enlisted personnel take all the heat. This of course is not surprising because this practice has gone on for decades. The Senator from South Carolina should honor the statment he made during the Senate hearings and see to it that all involved in the scandal are prosecuted,not just the lower ranked enlisted personnel that were just following orders.
There is so much information that America doesn’t know. I wish someone with the know how and the right connections would investigate the names of the officers involved. I think it is kind of strange that Lt. Brenson received not even a slap on the hand and he was the officer giving daily orders to these soldiers. Do you know that he does now in the civilian world? He works for a congressman in Washington DC. How convenient is that? I am proud to say that Chuckie has been a close friend of mine since 1987 when we went to the Univ. of Pitt. He is no way the monster they describe him as. Being a monster is the farthest from the truth.
Horns, you used dershowitz once before, and while i agree with him as well, the point is moot for the following 2 reasons:
1. dershowitz isn’t being nominated for attorney general. throwing his name out everytime someone quotes gonzales ignores the fact that a man who actively sought out ways to circumvent international law to justify torture will soon be the top law enforcement officer in the nation.
2. if america wants to be seen as the shining city on the hill, we need to learn to adapt as our enemies have– if the norms of the past no longer apply, then we must find new ways to lead–torturing people isn’t one of them, regardless if it all happened in one night or is a systematic pattern.
“No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.”
geneva conventions, Pt 3, Sec 1, Article 17
Sargent- “ok, we caught you beheading 5 electrical contractors, now tell us where your leader is.”
Gentle-souled muslim combatant- [silence]
Sargent- “ok. well, thanks then. Stan will take you back to your room. would you like some tea?”
What happened to the wife who posted pictures on her blog a few months ago with her navy seal husband abusing prisoners? Was that taken on the same night as Abu Grab-ass?
Bradley.
It’s you again.
who cares? i want to the video of “spanky” graner and “ass-i-licious” lynndie gettin’ hot and saucy with 10 steamy ‘detainees’ in a remote tropicalish setting. what would make the better soundtrack- def leppard’s ‘when you make love’ or love and rockets’ ‘ball of confusion’? or maybe, and this is revolutionary, no soundtrack at all! just the whines and pleads and grunts and cries to allah for swift mercy.
no, jessica, def leppard? well, ok.
This guy got what he deserved. If he was ordered to do that stuff he should have known it WAS NOT a lawful order, but it is pretty obvious from his emails to his family and friends he knew exactly what he was doing.
How do you know what he mailed his family and friends? The emails I received from Chuckie stressed his disgust for the job he was required to do. Please don’t pass judgement on someone you know nothing about.
Pardon Graner!
Now that the media has inundated the world with all the sordid images and details of the “Abu Ghraib Prison Abuse Scandal”, and now that Spc. Charles Graner has been found guilty of these so-called “abuses”, we should all feel better, right? After all, America has done all she can to prove to the Arab street just how sensitive and caring she is, right? Pardon my French, but this is a bunch of BS! I don’t know what kind of goods we’re being sold, but I ain’t buying and neither should you. War is hell and bad things happen in war. Just ask Army Spc. Matt Maupin.
Matt Maupin, of Batavia, Ohio, is still missing in Iraq. The last time this American soldier was seen he was kneeling in front of a group terrorists on the same kind of sick and sadistic videotape we’ve seen broadcast on the Arab propaganda network Al-Jazeera. In uniform, supposedly under the protection of the Geneva Convention, in the hands of the very same monsters Spc. Charles Graner and his crew at Abu Ghraib prison have been condemned for being mean and insensitive to. So where is the international outcry over the whereabouts of Spc. Matt Maupin? Where is the condemnation by the United Nations of these non-uniformed terrorists who buried Army Sgt. Elmer Krause and four civilian contractors in a shallow grave after attacking their convoy?
What this author finds so outrageous and disturbing is that so many in the world, Americans included, appear to be more concerned with the rights of non-uniformed terrorists and public relations than actually defeating this evil enemy and bringing THEM to justice. While American casualties are more in line with the War with Mexico, the very fact that we appear to be fighting a “politically correct” war grants some validity to leftist claims that Iraq is another Vietnam. The fact that Army Spc. Graner is going to jail for the mistreatment and abuse of some terrorists, including a non-uniformed Syrian who by his own admission was in Iraq to kill Americans, confirms this. Vietnam should have taught us that we cannot win a “PC” war. Stringing up a few of these guys caught in the act to the nearest light pole is what should be done.
The Geneva Convention was designed to ensure civil treatment of POWs and civilians during a time of war. In other words, while war is a very bad thing, nations do go to war for various reasons. The civilized world felt it necessary to lay out some ground rules for all to follow. However, the Geneva Convention specifically prohibits the taking of hostages and furthermore, does not apply to those that fail to “conduct their operations within the laws and customs of war”. In other words, these hostage-taking headcutters, including the non-uniformed Syrian, are not protected by the Geneva Convention. Sadly, this simple fact does not come into play as it is much more fashionable to portray the United States as the bad guy in this current conflict.
While our nation has allowed itself to be distracted by the tsunami disaster in Asia, we will be faced with a similar disaster in Iraq if we allow that country to fall into the hands of the terrorists and Saddam Hussein. Abandoning the people of Iraq, as the naive anti-American leftists here in America would have us do, would be tantamount to unleashing a tsunami on those in Iraq desirous of freedom. We cannot allow political correctness to dictate how we fight the War on Terror. We certainly didn’t when we defeated Germany and Japan in World War II. It is up to patriots across this great country to maintain a vigilant state to ensure that this mistreatment of our own soldiers does not happen again. I invite all of you to contact President Bush, your elected officials, and the Army Court of Appeals, urging them to do the right thing and pardon Spc. Charles Graner. Maybe he was a bit overzealous in his treatment of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib, but at least they still have their heads.
http://www.congress.org to find your elected officials
To contact the Army Court of Appeals:
[email protected]
Dear Jon:
The Red Cross found that 80% of the detainees at Abu Gharib were ordinary citizens caught up in raids by the US forces. Major General Tabuga’s report even noted that “more than sixty per cent of the civilian inmates at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released.”
This would be those going about their daily business of trying to live in the midst of war when they found themselves under group arrest because of “intelligence” given about the place they were in or about. This includes those who were taken under arrest because some Iraqis have found it is an excellent way to extol vengeance on business competitors or neighbors they feel slighted them in the past. It also includes innocent family members who were taken when the relative who was the actual target couldn’t be found and who were told they would be released when that person turned themself in.
It is extremely dangerous to cast upon a people the crimes of a separatist radical group and extract vengeance. How could the extremists in the horrid videotape be “the very same monsters” in Abu Gharib? It is only possible within the mindset of bigotry.
If you can’t see anything wrong with the dehumanizing treatment and torture of people that have been arbitrarily rounded up in a flurry of unfocused raids, nor the prejudicial, narrow-mindedness of labeling them guilty merely because they were taken to prison, without any prior questioning or screening to ascertain anything about them, and you see nothing wrong in torturing 6-8 innocent people to perhaps find 1 with information, then I must object to your stance as a “patriot”. The American Patriots who defined themselves in the writing of our Constitution did so by ensuring the inalienable rights of every person, innocent until proven guilty by due process of law, and protected from arbitrary seizure of person and property, etc.
It was these very things Matt was fighting to bring to the good people of Iraq, and I doubt he would want his name to be used to justify vile mistreatment and gross military misconduct, regardless of who sanctioned it. Rather, let us mourn him and hold him up as an honorable American soldier who held himself to the higher standards of conduct deserved of our country’s and the world’s respect.
Of what worth is still having your head, if you cannot hold it up in the company of your countrymen?
Instead of allowing yourself to be consumed with hatred and focusing only on killing and retaliating against those you judge (and misjudge) to be evil, try remembering the greater purpose is the defense and protection of the inherent goodness in humanity, which can be found in a far greater percentage of the world’s population.
Love to you,
Karla Bean
Oh- Charles Graner! How I’ld love to tie you up and kick you in the teeth reapetedly! Until the blood from your mouth fills your stomach! Then I’ld beat your bloated gut with a lead pipe until you vomitted! Thats just the first 10 minutes! I’ld like to have you over for an indefinate period of time!!! You F**cking racist coward that can only fight someone who is tied up! They shoulda thrown you to an angry Iraqi mob!!! You FAG! Your gonna love prison!!!!!!!